Interview
The Gist
- Real impact. Skepticism over AI's tangible results despite the big promises being made.
- Loyalty layers. Loyalty is often derived from efficiency, rewards and aspirational or lifestyle connections to brands.
- Cookie warning. Google's impending end for cookies emphasizes the need for value exchange and meaningful engagement with clients.
In the rapidly evolving world of technology, the focus on tangible results from AI applications has intensified. Amid the hype surrounding AI, real-world examples of its impact remain a topic of debate and investigation. While many tout the promises of AI, tangible results in areas such as content generation and code writing are only beginning to emerge.
Simultaneously, the industry continues to explore the intricate dynamics of customer loyalty, examining the factors that create genuine connection with a brand. From the efficiency of Amazon's service to the aspirational appeal of certain car brands, loyalty emerges from diverse sources. And what will the ramifications of a cookieless world be for marketers?
Michael Mathias adds a valuable perspective on these matters. Mathias, a CMSWire Contributor, is an expert on digital experience of all kinds, including AI, customer loyalty and cookies, having had a career rich in technological development and insights. His understanding of the interplay between AI applications and the factors that create genuine connections with brands, has made him a thought leader on these subjects and more.
We caught up with Michael recently to hear what he had to say about AI, customer loyalty and the impending cookieless future.
Dom Nicastro: Hi, everybody, Dom Nicastro, managing editor of CMSWire here with our latest CMSWire contributor interview it’s going to be Michael Mathias, CEO digital experience agency Whereoware. What's going on, Michael?
Michael Mathias: Just living the dream here, Dom. Happy to talk to you.
Nicastro: Happy to you, too. And it's great to have you as a CMSWire contributor. We thank you very much.
Mathias: A pleasure.
Nicastro: Yeah, you've been consistent. Roughly how long have you been with us?
Mathias: I think I'm well into year three.
Nicastro: Yeah. Yeah, that came fast. Started with Siobhan Fagan, right, and then went over to the Nicastro era.
Mathias: The reign of terror.
Nicastro: Yes. And, you know, like, we're going to talk about all the things you talked about in your, in your recent article with CMSWire here that this video was embedded into. But first, I you know, hey, let's get to know more about the man, you know, behind the, behind the CMSWire column. So tell me about yourself and, and how you got into the role and what your company does?
Mathias: Yeah, well, thanks for asking. So I've been with the company about four years. I was recruited by the founder and former CEO is now our chairman, and really enjoyed meeting with him early on, and really bought into the raw materials that he had assembled to sort of distill ourselves and move into, you know, a more contemporary version of ourselves, which we've expanded quite a bit had some really terrific growth. Got a nice combination of B2B clients, B2C clients, B2B2C clients, and a nice balance of strategy, consulting, marketing automation, but then was very heavy tech, about 65% of our business is definitely development systems related on a variety of different platforms. So terrific, I spent my entire career in this space in one form or another, with little companies that you may have heard of, like Merkle, and Axiom and Thomson Reuters, and you know, a few other guys like that. So I'm an old-timer, a gray beard, as you can see, it's in my DNA.
Exploring AI's Impact: Real Results or Just Hype in Tech?
Nicastro: Yeah. I mean, you know, we're gonna give us a topic of your column, of course, but I want to start with the topic of the day. And it's AI. And, you know, I, I think people have been talking about AI for a few years now. But obviously, it's taken off. And are you seeing tangible results yet, you know, with clients with vendors, you know, who put out press releases and say, we put generative AI into our DXP, we put generative AI into our customer experience management or contact center software. Are the actual practitioners seeing the fruits of that?
Mathias: So I'm going to actually read a quote that I think is very applicable, is from a Duke University professor, Dan Ariely, who said this quote around big data back in 2015, and I think it's got roots before that. But as I was thinking about this, because I'm asked this question regularly, this is the most appropriate quote I can possibly find right now that he can, sums up what I'm saying.” AI is like teenage sex. Everyone talks about it. Nobody really knows how to do it. Everyone thinks everyone else is doing it. So everyone claims they're doing it.”
Nicastro: I've heard that one before.
Mathias: Yeah, it's been around. And I think it's, you know, what's old is what's new. Again, I think it's very applicable. And and today now, look, I am not a Luddite here. And I'm very interested and very interested, intrigued and concerned all at once with what AI can do, the promise of it, what it currently does. So to answer your question, specifically, we have not seen very specific results that I would say are like this is this is like, amazing. What we see is time to market on content generation, you know, ala ChatGPT, those types of things. We see that having an impact, we see, I would say, you know, it gets maybe a 20, 30, 40% jump on some content generation within some very narrow swim lanes.
You know, there's a lot of promise around AI and being able to write code, which is of great interest to us. What we have played with so far, we, I think that that code at scale for pure software development, might have some near term applicability in our large scale custom work that we do for you know, Fortune 500 type clients, not as much. So we're cautiously optimistic. We think that AI is something that will be part of our DNA and the DNA of all the tech stacks, marketing or otherwise. I don't think anyone's figured it out yet. And I think anyone that claims that they've got the secret sauce, the magic bullet, silver bullet all those things I, you know, I'm — I’ll be skeptical. Don't believe the hype?
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Understanding AI: Speeding Up Mistakes and Spending Without Guarantees
Nicastro: Yeah. Yeah for for us it's like, you know, it's made us quicker at things, I wouldn't say it's made us better, like, you know, our content hasn't skyrocketed with engagement and all that domain authority because of AI that nothing like that has happened. It's just made us a little quicker, you know, podcast transcriptions that I need to get a little three paragraph intro out of? Sure. I'll put that into ChatGPT in 2,000 word chunks, and I will get my intro pretty fast, then again, I do have to circle around and see if it got it right. Because I don't trust it. I do not trust it.
Mathias: And AI, AI is such an imprecise term. Right? So there are so many different categories of AI. And what people ascribe to being AI could be 20-year-old marketing automation that is now, it's just a thing, it's just a machine doing something faster, or in spite of human involvement. Yeah. And, and so when, you know, someone says, oh, we have to be good at and have an AI practice for our clients, we need AI? I'm like, Well, hold on. Let's sort of divide that up a little bit here. What are you really trying to get to?
And what do you think AI is going to do? And what do you think that really is? And the answer nine times out of 10 is we don't know, we just need to have AI because everyone else has AI. And like well, well. But let's really compartmentalize that. And I will again argue all day long that many components of AI have been around for some time. They're just rebranded now underneath an AI umbrella. And there is a piece of AI that is very, very interesting and very creative, and very much at the front edge.
And that's the one I would say, Let's be careful there, my sort of last comment on that soapbox, is I mean, AI can help you make mistakes a whole lot faster, and help you spend money, really at a speed that you had no idea you can spend it, because it just keeps going. You better have some safeguards in there.
Nicastro: Yeah. Yeah. Well, the topic of the day, you know, your article is “3 Must Haves for Digital Leaders Who Want to Ride the Wave of the Ever-Changing Future? What a title by the way. Good stuff. Who wouldn't want to read that one?
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Mathias: Well, “Old Yeller” was taken so I couldn’t use that.
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Decoding Loyalty: The Intricacies of Customer Experience and Connection
Nicastro: So one of the things you talked about, Michael, was the emphasis emphasizing, you know, the importance of loyalty-centered customer experience. So let's talk about examples of that. Right? How do you, you know, examples of where companies have excelled in creating these great experiences that are loyalty centered, if you will? Do you have any? What kind of generally sets those companies apart that do that well?
Mathias: Yeah, well, yes, it's loyalty, it's a fascinating topic. And, you know, the office gets confused with platforms, gets confused with real behavioral loyalty and real sort of connectivity with a brand or with any type of engagement. And I don't know that some experiences that create loyalty aren't necessarily fantastic. And so let me sort of, I think of loyalty in three different buckets. Maybe four, but we'll start with three.
The first is that loyalty is created out of efficiency. So look at Amazon, right? Am I loyal to Amazon? Well, my behavior would say that I'm loyal to Amazon. But why is that? And really the big piece of that is because it's efficient, it's convenient. And I'm lazy. And do I feel bad about not going down to the corner store and buying something local on any given day? Sure, I do. I do like to support local as best I can. I live. I live near Annapolis, but out, far outside, we don't have a lot of chain stores where I live. And so everything's very local. I like to support them. So I want to see that community thrive.
I also look out my window, which is right over here. And I see the blue van from Amazon driving down here multiple times a week. And so what you know, is that, am I loyal to Amazon? I don't really care about Amazon, but it's a tool for me. So is that loyalty? We can argue that but the experience that they've created is frictionless. Right? That creates some loyalty.
You know, there's another bucket of things that create loyalty are perks, rewards, points, those types of things. And you can argue all day long chicken and egg. So here's what I know from my own experience. I'm a 2 million-mile flyer, I'm a million-mile flyer on two different airlines, and I'm approaching my third. And let's be clear, I do not recommend that. I'm only 24. I look like hell from all the time I spent in the air. But, you know, and I definitely was at my height, which I don't travel like that anymore at all but at my height, I would be the point slave, I would choose based upon points. Yep. So then, all right, well, is that there's a loyalty program. But does that actually make me loyal? And I think that that behavior is something that — so that the third one, which is, you know, I think people are most loyal. And I know I'm most loyal to those things that are brands or engagements, activities, that are aspirational, or lifestyle based. And either they connect with the lifestyle that I have, or the lifestyle that I want.
So it's the difference between, you know, talking to somebody who is passionate about cars, versus someone who isn't. And you think about the car for them is like Amazon, if they're not passionate, it's like it's a tool. It's something like that. You talk to a car nerd, which I happen to be one. I'm passionate about it, I love them. I think they're awesome pieces of machinery. And that I am loyal to some brands because of that because they create, either they satisfy a lifestyle that I have, or a vision of myself that I think I should be or that I want. And I think that experience and take it all back to how you use data, how you use content generation AI, how you use your technology platform, it's to evoke one of those levers. Is it easy? Am I getting rewarded? Or is it somehow making me a better me at least in my own mind?
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Nicastro: Right? Exactly. Yeah, loyalty for me is also company or a brand that fixed the problem I had — listened, listened, at least listened and try to work on the problem. And if they really truly couldn't solve it, at least try to come up with an alternative to make me happy. You know, they really care, they listened. That would make me pretty loyal too. So I think there's that emotion. And he's talking about cars, too. I think it was a great point with cars, cars, and CX kind of, you know, it's like, Are you being loyal to the Chevy brand? Or are you being loyal to that brand because it brought back so many memories of driving your kids across the country? Right? Like, you wonder where that emotional tie-in comes with car brands like that.
Mathias: Or did you have that poster on the wall on your 13 year old kid? And like, I'm going to have that one day?
Nicastro: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So those connections are important, too. We've crossed a lot of we cross a lot of subjects here. And AI, cars, loyalty. How about we talk about cookies? The depreciation of cookies. I know, Google, and you mentioned this in your article too. But now there's new news on this. Google is going to, you know, start taking away cookies for like 1% of Chrome users in early 2024, I think it is. And then, a full, a full end of support, right later in that year. So you know, what, what's the message there in terms of the adapting that marketers customer experience folks who rely on these kinds of tracking methodologies? What's the big message right now, as we sit here in the middle of 2023?
Mathias: I think the message has been the drum’s been beating for a while, but now the cliff is coming closer. And that message is you better create some value exchange with whatever you're delivering, or a client or prospect’s asking for. And in doing that, that will, whether it's loyalty, you know, through one of the different vehicles we talked about, that will create the permission and the environment by which you can actually then have a conversation. And if you can't create some type of value and sustain that value, you know, you're gonna have a problem because the days of being able to just go out there with the shotgun after shotgun after shotgun and after shotgun and hoping that you're gonna get point 00000, something of a response. That's, I would argue that really never should have worked.
And, you know, technology led us down a little bit of a false avenue there. Because you know what is the cost of acquisition, the cost of all that? I mean, was it really worth it when you look over the long term of creating a lifetime value measurement around what you brought in? In some cases, I'm sure the answer is yes. In a lot of cases, maybe not so much.
It is interesting. I have two sons, one of them's recently engaged, he and his fiancee were down. Yeah, thank you very, very happy for them. For all of us. My wife's already naming the grandchildren that withstanding. They were cleaning out their email boxes, and, you know, basically, under their breath, you know, and look at all the spam look at all this crap, you know, stuff I'm getting. And just to pick on one channel, it could be many could be Facebook ad, it could be anything.
Yeah, that happened to be email. And then he stopped, he started reading one I happen to be kind of, I could see, and he, an avid skier, and he was reading about your ski vacation and new gear and new this and new that. And I said, ah, so it's not all spam. Then he said, well, no, it's not. So well. What's the difference?
Because while I'm interested in this he said, Indeed, so the idea that the make that connection, and really understand and perhaps this is something I'm very interested in if AI can actually help distribution, and understand any type of signals that are in the marketplace that are well with inside the privacy and compliance world or, you know, all the things that we have to live with. But can it, can it experiment faster to get the relevance higher, up higher to create that permission? So I don't think there's a magic, you know, again, this is going to replace cookies, I would say, give some core value and the exchange that you're having whatever that is.
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Nicastro: Yeah, I'm gonna miss cookies, personalization, segmentation, you know why? Because I like to be tracked. I, she's upstairs, my wife, I got a thing, a gift lined up for her. But I just don't execute on buying it. I just sit there. I look at it and say I’ll buy it, I'll buy it later. But every time it comes up in my Facebook ads, I click on it. So I keep pushing it and pushing it. And I'm telling you, they are serving that ad up to me over and over again. I like it because it gives me reminders as a husband.
Mathias: Well, you know, look, I'm no different, right? We all have our passions and interests are usually beginning to pick on car stuff. We all are, our heads down at work and you're doing whatever we're doing. Something pops up somewhere on some car site. Oh, yeah, I'll look at that for a minute. Because it is relevant to my where I'm loyal and how passion and if someone can find that. They should take advantage of it. They're going to find it without using cookies. And so that is a different type of value going in all you know back into you better hold on your data, you better ask permission, you better have it organized, which I probably is an on ramp to the next round of questions around how to optimize these things, right?
Nicastro: Yeah, yeah, we'll see if Google can stick to a name for the new approach. Whether it's FLoC or The Sandbox. Looks like Privacy Sandbox might stick. But we shall see.
